S5E9: Real Talk - Authentic Conversations that Connect Generations, with Erika Ayers Badan

“I've messed up in every aspect of my life in every way possible, and I've learned from it. And hopefully someone takes that and they can learn something and then make their own mistakes, too.” - Erika Ayers Badan

 

Do you want to discover the secret to turning your passion into a successful business? Get ready to unlock the key to transforming your passion into a thriving business.

In this episode, you will be able to:

• Unleash the power of your passion and turn it into a thriving business venture.
• Discover the key to navigating career transitions and finding genuine happiness in your work life.
• Unlock the hidden benefits of diverse work experiences and how they can elevate your professional journey.
• Master the art of building a captivating personal brand on social media to stand out in the digital world.
• Explore effective strategies for achieving a harmonious work-life balance and reclaiming your time and energy.

Erika Ayers Badan is a digital innovator, disruptor, and seasoned executive on the cutting edge of content creation, distribution, and monetization of premier and culturally relevant content. As an early adopter of internet culture, Ayers has always been interested in what’s next, driving digital entrepreneurship and large-scale revenue growth within companies.

 

Ayers Badan was recently named CEO of Food52 after serving as a board member and advisor since 2019.

 

Ayers Badan currently serves on the boards of the Premier Lacrosse League, and global public safety technology leader Axon Enterprise (AXON).

 

She is also the author of the book “Nobody Cares About Your Career: Why Failure is Good, The Great Ones Play Hurt and Other Hard Truths” which was released in July of 2024. Intertwined with anecdotes from her own career, Ayers Badan shares inspiring insight into how work really works, and how you can get it to work for you.

 

As the first-ever CEO of media magnate Barstool Sports, Ayers Badan led the company through explosive growth (+5000% in revenue and significantly more in audience), expanding the company from a regional blog to a national powerhouse brand and media company. During her 9 years steering the company, Barstool became a top ten podcasting publisher in the US, with the world's #1 sports, hockey, golf, and music podcasts, and a top 6 brand globally on TikTok. Ayers Badan has launched over 35 brands, including breakout franchises like Pat McAfee and Call Her Daddy.

 

Following Barstool’s exponential growth, Fast Company named Ayers Badan as one of its "Most Creative People in Business" in 2018, citing Barstool Sports' expansion into multimedia and merchandising during her tenure. That same year, Forbes ranked her 25th on its "Most Powerful Women in U.S. Sports.” In 2019, she was ranked #19 on The Big Lead's list of "The 75 Most Powerful People in the Sports Media Business." That year, she was also included on Crain's New York's "Notable Women in the Business of Sports.” Adweek named Ayers Badan as one of its "Most Powerful Women in Sports" in 2017 and 2020.

 

Ayers Badan has also held several senior roles at influential media and technology organizations, including President of BKSTG, CMO for AOL, VP of Branding at Yahoo! and Senior Director of MSN Branded Experiences for Microsoft.

 

Transcript:

00:00:03
Welcome to your Next Stop podcast.

00:00:08
Welcome back to your Next stop. This is Juliet Hahn. I say it every single time. I love bringing you guys people that have followed a passion, turned it into a business, and just do really amazing things that we can learn from and get motivated. So welcome Erika Ayers to your next stop.

00:00:23
How are you? I'm great. How are you? I'm good. I'm really excited about this on so many levels.

00:00:28
But let me just give a little background so people can. I know when people listen, sometimes they like to be like, wait, who am I listening to? Right? Why am I listening to this person? So you're a digital innovator.

00:00:38
You are an author of two times books. Your first one is no one cares about your career, why failure is good, which I love that. And then the second book is the great ones, Play Hurt and Other hard Truths. And that just came out in July 2024. You were the first CEO for Barstool, and now you are the CEO for Food52.

00:01:01
And you were on the board for many years before that and just joined recently. Yeah. So that is you. So I am excited on so many levels because when we did our, like, 15 minute, kind of let's talk, we definitely were like, okay. We see each other in a different, like, yeah, we could feel.

00:01:18
We. We could hang out and have coffee, tea, drinks, talk about kids. Like, just. There's so many things that we just were really comfortable about. So I would love just to kind of start with a little bit about your background, like, where did you grow up?

00:01:33
And a little to start there. And then we're gonna get into your. Your life. Yeah. So thank you for so much for having me.

00:01:40
I was born in Colorado, but when I was, you know, in elementary, early elementary school, we moved back to the East Coast. So my parents were from. My dad was from Vermont, my mom was from Connecticut, So we moved back to New England. I grew up in New Hampshire, and my dad was. Both my parents were teachers, and then my dad was a principal and then a superintendent.

00:02:02
So both my parents really worked in education, and we kind of grew up in this crazy household where you could read, stack wood, like, play sports. And that was pretty much the only option in our house. So I had kind of like a small town, New England childhood. Both my parents worked. We worked a lot.

00:02:23
I got a job as early as I could. I liked clothes, and I wanted to be able to afford them and go to TJ Maxx and Marshalls. And so I knew to be able to do that, I would have to have a job. So I've had a lot of jobs. Very young, I went to college in Maine, and then I really started working.

00:02:43
And right after that, I thought I wanted to be a lawyer. I worked at Fidelity Investments. And jobs, you know, that people were like, ooh, those are big jobs. Someone should have that forever. And I was like, I hate this.

00:02:53
I, you know, don't want to be doing this. I want to do something that makes me happy. And I jumped into the Internet. I was really lucky to start working in the Internet when, you know, the Internet was just getting exciting in the late 90s. And then kind of had kind of a meandering career from there.

00:03:09
Yeah. I mean, a couple of things, and I think that you can feel that, like, that you came from where you worked at a lot of different jobs, and I think that's so important. And one of the things that. Raising kids myself. I know you're raising kids as well.

00:03:23
Yeah. I always say, like, it doesn't matter what mom and dad have. There's, like, things that we do, whether the neighbor does it, other family members, you know, cousins do it. Yeah. Getting that job in the beginning, to me is so important because I always say it's so important to find out what you don't life and what you don't want to do.

00:03:42
And I remember saying that from when I was young, because I also was the same, like, you know, grew up in kind of very traditional. My mom was a teacher. My dad was in real estate. Yeah. And there was five of us.

00:03:52
So it was like, I wanted to get clothes, so it was like, okay, I babysat. I, you know, do whatever you need to do. Exactly. And I think that it's. So.

00:04:00
It was like, it really not only did it give me worth ethic. Yeah. You know, I mean, that is one thing that's, like, very obvious. Yeah. But it taught me, like, really where my strengths and, like, weaknesses were, but, like, one what lit me up and what I liked.

00:04:13
So can you take us through some of those, like, early jobs that you were, like, you did it just to get the money, and others that you maybe enjoyed a little bit more. Totally. I mean, I worked from probably. It sounds like you were the same from probably when I was, like, 13, 14, like, the babysitting gig. I hated babysitting.

00:04:29
I really, absolutely hated babysitting. I found it tedious. But I knew I could always get more babysitting gigs because I always cleaned the kitchen after I babysat, which today is still my bar. If, like, babysitter comes over, and she, like, washes the dishes of the. I'm like, okay, I'll have you back.

00:04:50
So, you know, I think you do also. You learn things even in the jobs you hate. And you're like, this is terrible. But you learned some. You learned some trick in it, which is kind of how I approach work.

00:05:01
I also really liked work to be funny, and I always wanted to learn from characters at work. So, like, I worked in restaurants. So I worked, you know, at this restaurant in Weirs beach in New Hampshire, and it was, like, run by, you know, what felt like mobsters, and it was just, like, dingy and terrible. And, you know, I remember the toilet broke once, and my brother and I made a sign that was like, you know, the bathroom's on the fritz. And we thought it was so funny.

00:05:29
Like, we chose just, like, the funniest work. My brother also worked at the restaurant, and we thought we were so funny. So I also knew really early on that I, like, wanted to laugh at work. Like, I wanted to be able to make fun of work while I was at work. And then, I agree with you.

00:05:45
I think it's good to work. You know, it's good to work in all different types of situations. It's good to work with people who, you know, it's easy. I think right now, especially with parents of like, oh, I'm just going to go plop my kid in a job where I know the boss, and it's going to be cushy, and it's going to be great. It's good to work for people who could care less about who you are and where you're from or what you have or what you don't, or who your dad is, which, you know, my.

00:06:12
I really enjoyed that because it made me have to figure out all different types of people and figure out all different types of situations, which I think is really important. Yeah, no, it is. And, you know, it's so funny because I babysat. I actually babysat at 11 for a family across the street that had neonate newborns that were in, like. Oh, they were, like, premature, stressful.

00:06:34
Oh, my God. And I was 11 years old. I again, lived across the street. The one little girl's head fit in my hand, and they came home with heart monitors. Okay.

00:06:41
Oh, my gosh. And the parents, who I absolutely loved, they were these, like, cool. Like, they were like, you're good. They're not going to die. We were in the hospital.

00:06:49
They have to wear these heart monitors. If it beeps, just, you know, just touch them. A little, and you're good, but we need to go out. We need to connect. And I remember learning from some of the families, some of things that I was like, I want to incorporate that in my life.

00:07:04
Yeah, I think that's great. You know, and so I kind of always took it at that, like, what can I learn from this family of things that I want to do or don't want to do? And that's why I. I loved babysitting for. For that reason.

00:07:15
And it was like, you get to. See how a family works, and then you're like, oh, I like that. Or I don't like that. Or, yeah, still in contact with a number of the families that I did, and I will always kind of say to them, hey, like, now that I'm in this stage of my life and, you know, married for 21 years, like, I just want to thank you, gu. Yeah.

00:07:32
Like, for some of the things that you showed me, and thank you for some of the things that, you know, also, you were like, yeah, this is like, you don't want to do this, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's great. But insane with, like, you working with your brother and kind of going through that is. It's such an important thing that you got early on. Like, I want to have fun because so many people, right?

00:07:52
They go to college, they go to university. They think they're supposed to do what? Like, yes, the neighbor does. Right? And I.

00:07:59
So many people on this podcast that I've talked to where it was like, you know, I became the lawyer, I became the doctor. But early on in my studies, I realized I hated it and I didn't want to do it. And I'm like, well, why did you continue it? They're like, well, I thought I had to until, you know, they had the breakdown in their 30s, and then they changed. So, okay, take us after college.

00:08:21
And you getting into, like, early, as you said, you, like, you know, did some finance stuff, and it was like, okay, I definitely want to do this. How did you. After, like, you started seeing the Internet and being like, okay, this feels good. I talk about, like, the good feels and. Right.

00:08:35
That was a good feel. I was kind of in the working world during that time, and I remember getting the first dot com, and people were like, I was in advertising. Like, what are you doing? And I was like, I don't know. This is so fun, but it's, like, new, and I think we can make our own rules, which I loved.

00:08:48
Yeah, same. Yep. Yeah, I mean, that was. It was fun to be at the beginning of something now, that would be AI, Right? Like, what's happening in AI is like the Internet when I was coming out of college, and people coming out of college now, I think, can look at AI as like, this frontier.

00:09:05
Like, you don't really know who the winners are going to be. And there's. There's a big bubble that's growing. And so I think it's really interesting to be in. In sectors of the industry that seem unknown, and especially when you're young and you don't have a lot to lose, because then if you work someplace that you, you know, don't like, you can, you know, the.

00:09:27
The knowledge you're going to get is super transferable. So, you know, and I started. When I really started my career, I knew I wanted to work in advertising. I knew I wanted to work in content. I knew I wanted to work definitely on the Internet.

00:09:38
And I was kind of scrappy. I was like, hey, I'm. I had taken a big paycheck, big pay cut. When I left Fidelity, I. And I left the legal department, I was making, like, $50,000.

00:09:51
And then I went and made, like, $16,000 or $17,000. And it was like, scratch on the record. And then I was very hungry to, like, get back to making $50,000, like, in my head every morning when I went to work. It was like, how am I going to get back to $50,000? And.

00:10:06
But that was actually good for me because it kept me really motivated. I think what's hard right now for kids coming out of school, I think it's hard for kids coming out of school, and it's also hard for moms who want to go back to work. I think kids coming out of school. You know, I talked to. I have a college kid who I'm friends with and, you know, friendly with, and he's like, you know, I go to Princeton.

00:10:30
I need to go work in finance. Everybody from Princeton goes and works for finance. And I was like, well, do you want to work in finance? I was like, why don't you start with that question versus the other one? So I think it's.

00:10:41
I do think it's really dangerous to get on a conveyor belt that you're not super into. And it is totally okay to take that first job. And it's not perfect. You know what I mean? Like, it may not be the job you want.

00:10:54
Like, it may not be the place you want to work or the person you want to report to or the city you want to live in or whatever. But if you just get your foot in the door, something really good can happen. And I, I wish for people that they could let go of. You know, that's why I called my book nobody cares about your career. Is that like really at the end of the day, nobody cares about your career.

00:11:14
So just, just start doing something and then figure out who you are and what you want to be. No. 100%. And so people also, they can find you on Instagram @Erika. And that is E R I K A.

00:11:26
And then they can also find you on LinkedIn. Yeah. Where you spend a lot of time on both of those. So they can find out about your book. I don't shut up about this topic.

00:11:34
I can talk about this topic all day. But it, because it's so important though, because I feel like there's, you know, if we look back at our parents generation where, you know, it was like, okay, this is the cookie cutter, this is what you should do. And it really was kind of muting your happiness. Right? It was kind of muting your happiness.

00:11:49
And now I feel like there's such a divide where we still have those people that. Right. Like, I mean, I still will talk to people and they're like, well, no, my kid needs to go to this college. And I'm like, yeah. Why?

00:12:02
What? Who are like, what? Like, yeah. Oh, I didn't realize that you're still on that. Like, yeah.

00:12:07
Or. And, and so, and we talked about some of the areas that we have lived in and some of that. Sometimes it happens in that really big. Yeah, it's great. I think there's a really sad thing where, you know, I think something is happening with people in their 40s or, you know, parents of like grade school, middle school age kids where one is that the pressure to be so great, whether it's like you're going to be great at athletics or you're going to be great at, you know, Mandarin Chinese or like the pressure is.

00:12:39
It's just so high, it's stupid. And it's also a lot of money and it's a lot of effort and you know, I think we're spending all of our time, I think. Or there's a lot of people spending a lot of time in this, like, oh, like my kid's gotta be a great athlete. I was a great athlete. Or, you know, I want my kid to go to this school because I went to that school or whatever.

00:12:58
And the reality is like, our kids are like nuking their brains on their phones and like, maybe we could maybe like have more conversations with your kid and worry less about, you know, is he a great linebacker? Or, you know, are they mastering Chinese? Like, it's. It's a little screwed up. I think it really is.

00:13:16
I mean, I remember when I first moved to a certain town, and I was like, we were digging in the dirt, my kids and I, we came from Brooklyn and we were digging in the dirt, and someone said, hey, do you want to join Chinese lessons? I mean, Chinese with us. Or it was Mandarin or something, like on Saturdays. And I was like, cooking. I was like, I'm so confused.

00:13:35
And they're like, what are you talking about? No, the language. And I was like, wait, what? And my kid was like six years old. We do Mandarin all day Saturday.

00:13:44
And I said, wait, you go to class? I go, listen, we're dyslexic. Yeah, yeah, 100%. We're. Saturday, we're gonna go dig for dirt and sell worms or eat worms.

00:13:54
Like, really? I'm like, because that's what makes us happy right now. But I remember that being like, so. Oh, my gosh, a lot of people do that. And so I said, like, why?

00:14:03
I'm just curious. Like, why are you doing that? And it was like, well, his dad's in finance, so we want to set him up for that. And I was like, I remember not being really close with these people because I think I said, that sounds like a nightmare. Yeah.

00:14:15
Like, what does your child want to do that? Like, are they even going to get a choice? I was like, oh, no. I was like, we're. We're not like those people.

00:14:21
We're digging around. Yeah, we're going to look dirty and, like, play in the day dust. Crazy. Because I think the other thing that, I mean, I see it a lot in the workplace, right? Like barstool, we had 400 people.

00:14:31
When I last 52, which is the company I run now, has, you know, 150 people. If you're put on the track where your mom or your dad is like one, it can just be so defeating if that's not what you want inside. And I think listening to anybody, whether it's a kid or a grownup, you know, it doesn't matter. But then the second piece is they. If they're so managed.

00:14:54
When you get into a workforce and you've been, like, driven here, told what to do there, taught how to think, like, people aren't able to think critically and work dimensionally, and it becomes really, really debilitating. I think this type of parenting is putting, like, really Making kids really fragile by the time they get to the workplace. No. And I'm sure you've seen it, you know, running these companies. I'm sure you've seen it in different generations, right?

00:15:23
Yes. It's crazy. I mean, it's our generation. Like, I'm in my late 40s. Like, I hate to say that, but I'm like, I'm in my late 40s, you know, like this group wanted things, you know, like you wanted the office, you bought into this thing of you gotta work and you want the dream and you want the stuff.

00:15:39
And it's interesting as you go down the line. You talk to 20somethings now they're like, I don't know, if I have to work, I guess I will work, but I don't really want to work and I'm only going to work the least I can. So it's a really different mindset. It really is. And.

00:15:55
Right. And you know, to say one is better or worse, I don't think any of that. Yeah, neither. All right. I think it's what about what makes us happy and what makes us better people?

00:16:05
And when we put our, when we put ourselves in a place where we're fulfilled and we're good, we then kind of can spread it to others. And I think that's what's so important. And I think that's what I love about your background, is that you really, you know, at Barstool, just reading up on some of the stuff that you did was really innovative, but was also like, you really cared about the people and you cared about growing a brand. So can you take us through that a little bit? Yeah.

00:16:32
I mean, I got to Barstool in 2016 and there were 12 people, so it was like really small. Maybe there's 15 on the outside. And they were really, really deeply committed to the brand, but they didn't, they didn't have a lot of support, they didn't have a lot of guidance. They didn't have any business. There wasn't a business really.

00:16:54
I mean, it made money, but it wasn't a, it wasn't something that could scale, which is really what I brought into it. But, you know, we moved, we moved everyone to New York. So we uprooted all those people to move to New York. And, you know, no one knew where to live. No one had a dentist.

00:17:13
Like, they didn't, you know, like they all lived together. They all lived in like one. No one had ever lived in New York City. Like they. So it.

00:17:19
I felt a little bit like A mama bear, where I'm like, okay, like, here's. This is going to be the dentist. And like, this is like, you know, okay, this is a grocery store. Like, whatever. So I remember I had hired an office manager who was straight out of college and was moving from Buffalo, New York, and he didn't have a place to live.

00:17:38
And I was like, all right, well, like, you can live in my spare bedroom. Like, you know, so it was. It started like that where I. They were. It's very fun to work with people who are younger than you.

00:17:50
And I also think kind of in a different, like, the gender thing, I was the only woman there at the time. Oh, hold on. We have a dog coming in. I love that. Sorry.

00:17:59
Are you kidding? I'm the biggest dog person. I have boxers. No, not at all. Hi, Bubs.

00:18:05
Oh, where's your sister? Wait, that is hilarious. I have two boxers and I actually. Oh, you do? I muted myself for a second because they.

00:18:13
Someone let them upstairs. Even though I said, hey, I'm going to be recording from this time. I have like, yeah, no, you know, one of the things that I love that you just said, though, is about the dentist. Because my line is. So I do a lot of work with the NFL thread, which is like the link for the women of.

00:18:32
Of the NFL. So, like, the spouses and the partners. And one of the things I always say to them is when you move, it's like, oh, I got to find a dentist. I always. The worst.

00:18:43
Finding a dentist is the worst. Dentist is the worst. So you're like, I wanted the least bad debt. I actually love my dentist. I was to say, I love my dentist, too, but.

00:18:51
But a lot of people do have that hang up, and it is one of those things that you just painted a picture that so many people can relate. You're moving to a new city, and yes, it can be so exciting. But then there's things like the dentist. The doctor, like a network and, you know. Yes, a lot.

00:19:08
And we were, you know, I think I joined at a time where, you know, they were really. Most people were really young. They were in their early to mid-20s. I was probably 40, not even. So I was in my late 30s.

00:19:23
And we kind of just built it together and went through a lot. Like, barstool was big and controversial. You know, it was little and then controversial, and then it got bigger and got controversial. But I do really think you always have to care about the people and you want to work at a place or work for a person who cares about the People. And caring about the people can still mean that you're tough and you're hard charging.

00:19:46
And, you know, I was really hell bent on getting good results, but I also cared a lot about people individually. And I think it's important also to be in a place, you know, people can tell instantly if you really do care about people or not. Like, it's. It's like, you can't bullshit it. It's like, you know or you don't.

00:20:03
So. So I think more important than working at a cool company or in the right whatever is like, do you work for someone who's going to push you to someplace new and also care about you? I love that so much. Okay, so on that same kind of thought process, do you think that that's something you saw, like, that you were born with? Because I always think these innate things or you learn them in different aspects.

00:20:29
Like, can you take kind of your whole career and think about, okay, this is something that's a core value of mine, and this is where I kind of got it. It was, like, really embedded in my home or I had a job that the person did not care and I knew I was not going to be there. Was there kind of a time in your life that that was something that you decided, I am going to be this person, or do you think that's just innately who you are, or both? I think my. You know, it's funny, my.

00:20:57
Because my dad was a school principal and we were always, like, we were at every sporting event. We were at. This is like the most ridiculous. I love this so much. You don't even.

00:21:10
You're keeping this, right? We are. Keep this. Oh, 100. I was.

00:21:13
After we stopped recording, I was gonna be like, okay, I want to keep that. But if you're like, we're 100. Keeping the dog, that makes me so happy.

00:21:25
Yeah. No, so I'll answer. So I think, you know, we were. We. I had.

00:21:30
My dad was a workaholic. I remember he was getting his PhD for most of my childhood and, you know, working full time. And I. So I watched that. I.

00:21:42
I really picked that up in my household. And I also picked up a lot of the. Like, hey, you gotta show up. You. You just have to show up.

00:21:51
Like, you gotta. It's Sunday afternoon, and there's a softball game. And didn't matter whether anyone in our house cared about softball or not. Like, we were going to softball games. So, like.

00:22:01
So I think I learned a lot of that. I. My parents are very kind, and I think I Also like really picked up on the kindness, but they were all. They were, they weren't pushing in the way I think the people you and I are around where it wasn't. There wasn't any expectation that my brother and I should be a certain thing, but there was an expectation that we would be constantly learning.

00:22:25
And learning was a non negotiable in my household. So I think I always had that. And then I worked for, I worked for. When I worked early in my career, when I worked at mostly ad agencies, there wasn't people, there were interesting leaders and I learned probably more about what you shouldn't do than what I should do. But when I really started to go work for big companies like Microsoft and others, the caliber of people were insanely high.

00:22:53
And I learned how to be much tougher and how to be much more disciplined. So I think it's. It long, long answer, short. It kind of both. It's all encompassing, right?

00:23:04
Yeah. Which is cool. It's one of those things that kind of built you to be the leader that you became and that you are. Which is, which is huge. So you kind of were in those spots.

00:23:13
And I think the learning part is huge because that made you always be aware, the curious part of you that kept open. So it's like, let me see what I can do to continue to grow. And I think that's some of the things that a lot of people miss. And that's one of my favorite things about life is curiosity and constantly learning from others around me, whether they're a janitor or the president of a company. I want to talk to you.

00:23:38
I want to learn about like what you're about and what makes you tick and, and that like lights me up. That lights me up so much. And so I love that, that, that is something that you have there as well. So I would love to talk about, I mean really about the books because. Yeah, I, I think first of all, the title just makes me smile for both.

00:23:57
But like, let's talk about if we can, your first book, no one cares about your career, why failure is good, which is so important, where that came from. And then, you know, we'll get into your new book. Yeah. And actually, and sorry, it's only one book. It's just a really long title.

00:24:15
Oh, okay. So you can just like we'll just collapse. We'll just, we'll just. Yeah, we'll collab. Okay.

00:24:19
Yeah. Title of the book. Okay. Oh, that's so funny because I, in two different spots, I was like, oh. Wait, so Big.

00:24:27
Thank you for correcting me, because that would have been.

00:24:32
So I. So I wrote nobody cares about your career on the train. So I wrote it. I have a long commute. And I wrote it on my way to work and on my way out of work.

00:24:42
And I was writing it. You know, we had just sold Barstool Sports to Penn Entertainment, and I was feeling like my job was really kind of changing and this wild creative thing I was running, I was now going to like strategery meetings. It was just much more formal and much more finance driven and much more. It was, it was just more big company. It wasn't so wild.

00:25:05
And I was missing the creativity of Barstool. And at the time, I was getting a lot of messages on the Internet with work questions. And I was like, gosh, it'd be more efficient if I just answered these, you know, in a book versus answering people's dms on the train, which was really what I was doing. And so the book, really, it's in three parts. And the reason I think it's interesting is I think it's.

00:25:28
It's helpful whether you're like, early in your career and you're trying to figure out what you want to do with yourself, whether in your. You're in the middle of your career and you're kind of like, eh, I don't know where to go, or my boss is an idiot, or how do I manage this type of situation. It goes really through, how do you be successful at work? And then the last piece is, how do you know when to stay at a company or make a change? So, and the reason I wrote it is that I think those are the three places people get stuck when it comes to work.

00:25:57
I think work is pretty significant. You know, most people work now, like, one way or another. Work is obviously changing in terms of what work means and where work exists and all that. But what I thought was really important is that, you know, I think the two things that hold people back are their ego or their insecurity. And so like, to your point, like, I talk to everybody, like, whether it's a janitor or it's the, like the traffic guard or like, it doesn't matter to me.

00:26:25
I literally could talk to a wall. So I'm like, But it's a good habit to like, hey, you can learn something from everybody that's not having an ego. And then on the insecurity side, I think a lot of the times people hold themselves back at work or in their career because they think they can't do it. They think, like, I'm not good enough or I'm not smart enough or I'm not qualified enough. And I also think that's really dangerous.

00:26:48
I think it's dangerous to think you're too good, and I think it's dangerous to think you're not good enough. And then the second part of the book is kind of funny where it reads like a conversation. I'm in the middle of my career. I'm, like, writing what I'm experiencing, and I. It's really, you know, all the different types of bosses.

00:27:03
Who. Who is the dumbest person in your company? The dumbest person in your company is the person who doesn't understand why you're. What you get paid to do. And then the last part is like, okay, what do you need to do if you're thinking about making a change?

00:27:15
What happens when you get laid off? Like, how do you. What's burnout? How do you deal with burnout? So that's really, like, the gist of the book.

00:27:23
I love that. So when you decide you're sitting on the train, you're doing these dms. How many times did I'm gonna write a book come into your head before you actually started doing it? Not very much. I love that.

00:27:38
Like, I. I knew that that was going to be the answer, but I was like, I just. I'm so curious. It's kind of random. It really doesn't read like a book, you know?

00:27:47
Like, my first line in the book is like, I don't really know how this book thing is supposed to work, but, like, here, you know, reads like I'm writing an email on the train or I'm talking to somebody. Like, you are. You and I are talking. But I really. I didn't.

00:27:59
I never thought I would be a CEO in my life. And my. Nobody. I. You know, my.

00:28:04
My family isn't corporate. Like, I never thought I would be a CEO. I love being a CEO. I never thought I would write a book. I didn't, you know, ever think I was a particularly good writer.

00:28:14
I love that. I loved writing a book. So it really, you know, I kind of, on a whim, found someone and made a proposal to a book publisher. And they were like, oh, yeah, we would do that. And I was like, oh, all right.

00:28:27
I guess I'll just write a book. And so. And those kind of things. Because when people listen, I will get people that listen to the podcast a lot and will sometimes say, like, it flows for others, and it doesn't flow for some. Right.

00:28:41
And I think what the lesson and the message I always tell people is if you don't start something, you're never going to know. Yeah, right. You'll never know. You'll never know. And sometimes when we have these ideas and we start putting kind of the.

00:28:57
Our feet in front of each other, and it doesn't kind of come out the way we are thinking or it goes a different way, it just means that that wasn't your path. And so clearly this book was supposed to be. Yeah, exactly. And. And did you ever, like, as you were starting to do it, did you ever think to your.

00:29:15
In your head, okay, if it goes a different way, maybe this was just fun? And it was kind of like a collaboration, and it's not going into a book. Was there any times that you ever questioned her or was it like a. Pretty smooth. It was pretty smooth.

00:29:29
It took me. I felt the way you described. Like, if nobody picked it up, I would have been like, all right, whatever. Like, that was fun. Like, I got plenty of things to do.

00:29:40
Right. But it did. I care a lot about work. I care a lot about my work. And I always have been a little bit too emotional about work.

00:29:49
I really. I felt like I cared too much. So I always feel like this. Felt like this book has been in me because it's the caring too much that I'm now giving to other people. But it.

00:30:00
Once it started, it's, you know, like, it's a lot of sitting. Like, I, you know, like, it sounds stupid, but, like, I was like, I've gained, like, 15 pounds. Like, you just sit. It's a lot of sitting. I'm not like, a person who sits a lot.

00:30:12
So I think it was a lot of sitting that was the hardest piece of it. Like, I. I'm like. And it's. I was writing too much.

00:30:22
It was like, really got pared down. But it was. It wasn't easy, but it was. It was in the flow. Right, Right.

00:30:32
Which is interesting. And. And I love that you said that, like, sitting part, because it takes discipline. Like, if you was tough, right. And did you have to kind of set yourself up and be like, these are my writing times.

00:30:43
I have to write whether I want. Because you have a family. You have. As you set a job. And so how did that kind of work?

00:30:50
If you can take us through a little bit, it was like, okay, this is the times I have to do it. Or was it kind of sporadic? Like, okay, I feel like I want to write. I'm going to go run and do it now. I.

00:30:59
How would I describe it? I felt like it was a little bit like college where, like, in the beginning I was kind of rushing the term paper where I would just like, I. I knew I had a deliverable of a date where I had to have so much written and I just would, like, jam it at the end. And then that really didn't work for me. And then I.

00:31:19
The second piece was. I was starting to write it kind of like iteratively, like, where I would be on the train and I would be like, okay, I'm going to get this done on my commute to work, and then I'm going to get that done on my commute out. But then I would come up with like 15 different things based on what was happening today. And that kind of got, like, unwieldy. So by the end, I was.

00:31:40
It was nights and weekends, you know, like, it was most nights every week I would get home from work, like, shove some food in my face, like, hug my kids, and then get on the computer and start to write. So when you look back on, like. And I usually don't go, like, if you look back on these kind of things, but I'm just actually very curious. Do you think that your kids later in life will say, my mom wrote a book and I loved that time. Like, will they look back and think, like, how you just said you noticed that your dad was workaholic.

00:32:13
And I'm gonna go somewhere with this. And the reason why I'm asking you this, I'm finding very curious. As I'm raising kids and as my career has gotten bigger, I think it's really important for men and women to kind of think about this. So I think my kids will say that I was really into them, but that I was a workaholic, that I worked a lot. Right.

00:32:36
And not, I don't know, that they would discern the book from the other book, like, it's your mom on your computer. But I think they would say I worked a lot. And do I think they would enjoy it or not enjoy it? I think they would say they are proud of it. And I think it will be good for them to see a woman in particular.

00:32:54
And I think they will appreciate the journey. And to be honest with you, it's really all my kids have ever known because I just always worked so much. So I don't know if that's good or bad. I think other people would say it's bad. I think some people would say it's good.

00:33:09
I think that's just kind of how our family works, right? No, And I think, as you said, it works as your family. And the reason why I asked that is I. I just turned 50 this year, and I'm in a new career. I'm the chief communications officer for a company called Fetch that came out of the business that I started on my own as a storytelling consultant.

00:33:27
And so I just recently have had this conversation with my kids because I. And I do tons of stuff for a foundation. And so I have just kind of said to them, like, they can tell when I get stressed. I'm a little, like, overloaded. And now that they're teenagers, I'm like, okay, I would love to have, like, sit down and really talk to you guys about this.

00:33:48
And one of the things my oldest said to me, which is kind of similar to what you said, he said, it's been really cool to watch mom. Like, you stay. Right? Like, you stayed home with us, and then all of a sudden, you're like, I'm gonna start a podcast. And then all of a sudden, it became this business, and then it became this other thing, and it's been cool to watch.

00:34:06
And I was like, it was. I mean, he's 19, so it's like, you know, he's. He's older, so he can say that, you know, my. My daughter, who's a little younger, she'll say, well, I can tell when you're a little overloaded because you get a little grumpy. Yeah.

00:34:19
You know, but I think having those conversations and for the listeners to think about that, I think it's really important because we're humans, definitely. And. And to say, yeah, you know what? I maybe bit off a little, like, a toot the last month, and I need to sit down and reflect on it. And that's what we should teach our kids.

00:34:36
100%. Yeah. Like, I agree with that. I think it's. I'm with you.

00:34:40
I'm in the same place. And hopefully, you know, my kids in five years will say something brilliantly nice about me. But you do have to be honest. Like, you know, they have bad days at school, they have good days at school. I have bad days at work.

00:34:55
I have good days at work. We have bad days as a family. We have good weeks as a family. Like, so it's. And I agree with you, I think you always have to.

00:35:03
It's such a journey. The whole thing is such a journey, and there's high points and low points, and being able to reflect on it, I think, is such a Good skill. And then also being able to, you know, talk about it like, hey, I was really stressed, and here's. Here's why. I, you know, I.

00:35:20
I had this mentor once who was very, very successful in the ad business, and he was kind of like an institution, and his son found him very intimidating. It kind of came out when his son was a teenager that the son kind of always felt, like, daunted by the dad, and he was never going to be as good as the dad and blah, blah, blah, and the dad got the feedback. And what the dad started to do was to share his problems at work with his son in a way of like, hey, I'm really stressed about this thing. Because for me, when I tend to be a little cranky and, like, bitchy at home, it's because I'm stressed. It's because I'm like, I don't know my way out of this situation, or I'm really bothered by something, or something's not going the way I wish it would or whatever.

00:36:06
But he said that by talking to his son about it and showing vulnerability, it's actually what made him and his son connect. And I think that's. You know, I had a breakfast this morning with a woman who runs a mom's group, and she was telling me how she thinks most women in her network are working and miserable. And I was like, ah, that's like, such a crappy thing, but you're probably right. And then I was like, well, are we talking about why people are miserable?

00:36:35
And, like, are we sharing that with our families? And, like, is everybody in this? Like, the mom helps everybody else? It's like, could everybody else help the mom? Right?

00:36:44
No. And I. You know what? I got the chills when you were talking about the. The ad exec, because that could have went two ways.

00:36:51
He could have heard that feedback and just been like, okay, I'm doing the best that I can. But the fact that he was like, no, I want to connect with my son. I don't want my son to feel that way. I want to bring it in. And I think it's so important that a lot of times people think kids are kids, and they're like, oh, I don't want to burden them with this or not.

00:37:08
But when kids get older, if we think about when we're older, like, we want to understand, right? And understanding. When you understand your parent, oh, okay. That's what's going on. Like, okay, mom's traveling, so she's trying to get everything together, making sure the dog sitters there, you know, all of these different things that when sometimes it's overloaded on us and it's okay because we're human.

00:37:30
Us to snap at others. No, maybe we can do it a different way. But let's. Like, if you see moms like that, hey, maybe ask for help instead of. Trying to be pathetic.

00:37:40
Like, you know, why is she stressed? Like, right. And not overly where you feel like you need to fix your mom or like you need to fix your person. Responsible for your mom. But, like, I.

00:37:49
I think it's just, like, being honest. Like, it's what's, you know, what's everybody's expectations of what one another. And I think it's awesome that, you know, as you take. It's hard to take on something new, you know, like this. I wrote a book and took a new job in a month's time.

00:38:04
And that was too much. Like, it was bananas. It's been like a banana six months. And I'm. I talk to my family about it all the time.

00:38:11
I'm like, I think I just. I just took on too much. And it's good to talk about. Yeah. Because it's also.

00:38:17
Also good for them to see and. And see how we navigate. Good endpoint. Because what they're gonna take is like, ooh, when you're in a situation that feels a little overwhelming, are you gonna, like, pretend it's not happening? Are you going to complain about it?

00:38:28
Are you, like, going to actually do something about it? Do something about it and. Right. And. And.

00:38:32
And how, like, healthy habits. Right. Like, what am I going. You know, and I like, reflect back at times, maybe when I stayed home with the kids and, you know, maybe it was like weeks where they were young, and I was like, oh, let me have some wine. You know, I look back at that and I'm like, oh, okay.

00:38:45
You know, now that they're older. Journey. It's like, it's all a journey. And being okay to talk about it, Erika, I think, is what is so important. But there's so many people that don't do it because they feel like that it's embarrassing or they're less than.

00:38:58
That's why I started my podcast when I did. I started it in 2019, and it was called. At first was called Next Stop Crazy Town. And it was little personal journal stories. Because people.

00:39:10
Yeah, people would say I had just moved. And people, you know, I was doing. I did a lot of fitness stuff. So I would like any. Like, if we were at a swim lesson, I'd be like, hey, let's do.

00:39:19
I played sports, like, in college, so I was like, it was always kind of something. So I'd be like, hey, ladies, do you guys want to get on the lawn? And I called it ladies on the lawn. So, like, I did this. Yeah, it was just like this kind of the thing.

00:39:29
But I would go on social media and talk about it. Hey, I'm going to go here. And this is, you know, the fitness stuff people have been asking me. So I had a stint of that when I kind of went back to work when the kids got a little older. And I remember just being like, people being like, oh, you have it together.

00:39:43
And I was like, okay, if you open my front door, you'll be like, oh, this lady does not have it together. I was like. And I would be on, you know, on the, like, on social media, not having, like, I'm like, you really thought that was together? If you think that's together. Okay.

00:39:57
I mean, I just maybe have good genes, but, like, you know, it's not together. So I started really talking about all of the things in my life with my kids and before, when I moved to the city that I like, my kid fell out of his high chair right after Britney Spears. And I remember, like, being like, oh, Britney Spears, what kind of mom is she that her kid fell out of the high chair? And then literally, like, two days later, my kid. And I was like, oh, my God.

00:40:20
Yeah. So I was like, the judge. Like, we can't judge each other, and we're all trying to do the best that we can. And the fact, like, if we can connect and talk about it is what kind of that. So that's how the whole podcast started with little personal, like, 15 minute, little, like, here's my shit show.

00:40:36
Yeah. Yeah, that's perfect. Right? Because it makes it more real. And so the fact that you're sharing, you know, you're so real.

00:40:45
Right. But then also in the book, things that you have done that you can then help kind of that next generation, that reader, be like, I get it. I can connect and I can relate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My hope is like, just like with your kids, like, my hope is to just give.

00:41:00
Hey, like, I've messed up in every aspect of my life in every way possible, and this is what I've learned from it. And hopefully someone takes that and they can learn something and then make their own mistakes, too. I love that. I love that. Okay, so people can find you on LinkedIn.

00:41:17
Yes, they can find. Sorry.

00:41:22
What'S the pup? What's the dog's name. Her name is Angelica. And Shelika, I love you. You would have so much fun with the boxers.

00:41:30
You would have so much fun with the boxes. And thank you. She is so cute. And you have two. She has a sister, so she does.

00:41:39
So it's Angelica and Tatine. But, yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn. You can find me on Instagram. You can find. Find me anywhere.

00:41:45
I'm on the Internet. And everyone can find your book in all places. That's right. And thank you so much for having me. Yeah, this is such a joy.

00:41:53
I'm so thankful for sharing the story and thank you, Angelica, for joining your next stop. You guys know what to do, like, rate, review, and share, and we'll see you for another episode of your next stop. Great. Okay, that was fun. Thank you so much.

00:42:08
Yes. I'm so sorry about the book because I was like. I wrote it down and I know, but I was like, I usually am like, I have it two lines, and I'm like, wait, is that two? And you're not the first person to do it, so don't worry. Okay, but still.

00:42:20
Yeah, don't worry about. No, this was so much fun. I mean, like, look, I love you. I wish I could kiss your face, you silly girl. Take a picture.

00:42:29
This is so funny. Wait, this is so funny. And I. My editor's gonna, like, you know, I am probably one of the biggest dog people ever. So, like, the fact that it happened is like.

00:42:40
I mean, it's so ridiculous. It's just so ridiculous. She's, like, leaning. She's like, done. I'm the star.

00:42:48
I'm the star. She totally is. No, but thank you so much. And I'll let you think someone's out there. Okay, I'm gonna go.

00:42:56
Yes. I appreciate it. And I will let your team know and everything like that. Let's stay in touch. I would love.

00:43:04
I would love to stay in touch. I would definitely love to stay tips. All right. Happy? Ah.

00:43:11
Bye.