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YNS Live with Nicolai Tillisch

Jun 16, 2022

Listen to a new episode of Your Next Stop recorded live on Fireside with host Juliet Hahn featuring dyslexic author Nicolai Tillisch.

 

Nicolai Tillisch’s story exemplifies how aspirations can take us far beyond our immediate destiny. And how the hard work can require sacrifices that momentarily hurt. His new book Return on Ambition: A Radical Approach to your Achievement, Growth, and Well-Being helps us live out our ambitious dreams while enjoying a fulfilling life.

 

Ambition comes with seven Frenemies, which we must befriend but keep away from hurting us and our dreams. The Frenemy closest to Nicolai is the one of Perseverance. Severe dyslexia forced him to work extraordinarily hard to get to where he got. And not only as an author. His first job was as a management consultant at McKinsey & Company, one of the most desired places to work for new graduates. Nicolai left to become a managing director of a new company within the DDB, acknowledged as one of the world’s most creative advertising networks. At that time, he was only 29 years old. Since then, he has had leading roles in several other startups. 

 

Today, Nicolai is a coach for top business executives and works across Asia, Europe, and North America. Return on Ambition is his second book in English, and he has also contributed to two books in Danish. Nicolai is passionate about his work without that can ever overshadow his love for his wife Ida and their two children, Margaux and Axel. They live a beautiful and active family life in his native Copenhagen, Denmark. 

 

Return on Ambition was one of five finalists for the getAbstract International Book Award 2021 selected amongst 10,000 books published last year. It’s currently one of three finalists in the Business & Career for the IBPA Benjamin Franklin Book Award 2022. The jury will announce the winner on April 29.

 

Learn more at ReturnOnAmbition.com. Follow through on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram.



Remarkable Quote:

“Your weakness can become your strength. Also when you have weaknesses, you use your other strengths to compensate.”

 

“When you look at super creative people, they actually make a lot of mistakes. Mistakes are part of the whole creative process.”



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Episode Transcript

 

Juliet Hahn  00:01:50 

Oh,

We'll be starting in five minutes.

Hello.

We are gonna start in five minutes. We're gonna wait a couple minutes for some people to enter.

In the meantime,

if you click on the bottom, two lines, you can see where it says broadcast to the world and you can kinda send an email and send a text to other people and they can hear us.

I'm sending it right now to

Twitter and Facebook

were live on Linkedin right now. So everyone that's on Linkedin that's listening to us high,

And we are also live on Youtube and Facebook

and Twitch.

Hi, Will. How are you?

Great.

Alright. We'll be starting in two minutes.

I'm doing great. Well. Thank you.

And you guys can share this with your followers as well. If you click the two little lines to the bottom, you will see where it says broadcast to the world.

You can share this

to your followers. You can send an email. You can send it to family.

It is a really

great

platform here on Fireside that we're able to do

all that were people if they're not in the app, they can still listen in, which is really,

really helpful to get people stories out. And that's what we are all here

to do on Fireside. So let me mute

Mister Wait.

So welcome to y Live.

I am... So you you guys know I say it every time, but I truly am excited to get other people's stories out. You know that. So I want to welcome you to Nikola I

Kills, did I say that right? No. Tis.

Right.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:07:41 

It's it's because will be it. And inside the difference finish,

 

Juliet Hahn  00:07:41 

Did I say that right? Nikola I?

Till.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:07:46 

So so... But but

 

Juliet Hahn  00:07:48 

And no man.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:07:48 

we have had to...

Yeah. Hey exactly. I I am a man. But maybe i we even had to add s from people be able to pronounce where where I live now.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:07:58 

Right. Well so... And the funny thing is anyone that's listening,

they know that I'm just mexican. And so my pronunciations of people's names always throws me, but I have said your name, like, thirty times, and I don't know why. And I kept saying every once in a while, I wasn't looking at the piece of paper, I would say put a man on the end. And i'm, like, don't don't do that. No I just freaking do that. But fun fact,

deflect as well. So that's one of the things that's wanna... When we first spoke, what kind of connected us, which I love. So I'm gonna do a little reading our sponsor is picked cherries.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:08:26 

Yeah.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:08:31 

Anyone that does not know about this app, you guys have to go check it out. You can get it on ios.

You can also get on and...

To a podcast, and there's that little moment that you love that you wanna share, but you send the whole podcast right there. You you send the whole podcast sometimes they're an hour and you say, go a minute to, you know, too or go to minute twenty five point three. And you send that to your friend and they never do. We send up to family and they never do. Well, now you can... With an app called picked cherries.

You can actually be listening. It's a podcast listener, you can listen to your favorite podcast on there, and you can find that little moment that you wanna send. Just like an Id or a tick, and you can send it to your friends and family, so they can listen to that little snippet. And then usually, what happens would have been happening with my podcast. They listen to that little snippet, and then they go listen to the whole thing. So you guys have to check out picked cherries,

but I am really excited again for this episode for so many reasons. When Nikola I first met on Linkedin, my guest, I'm, you know, my my listeners always love to know kind of where I meet people

because I've meet such a broad range of people with so many really interesting stories.

And

Is a leadership,

an international leadership coach, but he also an author in return on ambition has won some awards. It's the i

b

benjamin,

Benjamin Franklin award, which is really exciting. So we connected. He was telling me about his book, And I said, you know I wanna know a little bit more about you. What is your story? And that's where the dyslexia came in and he's like, I'm an author. That's deflect. Like, I have a story.

So welcome Nikola july.

Live on Fireside.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:10:10 

Thanks so much.

Yeah. It's it's it's

it it's something we say And and I I have struggled with names and still do even to the extent, I I have a couple of of clients. So companies

where where I've been very polite

been told several times that I

she at means,

but they keep inviting me back. So apparently, it's not the criteria.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:10:30 

Right.

Well, because you have so many other, you know, so many other gifts that, you know, as we know, you know, with with just like That's like, a little thing. And if we... People can get past it and see

our preakness and what we can do with our dyslexia with our you know, the way we think out of the box and our big, you know, picture thinking,

they can get over it. So I know when we originally spoke and, you know, you were telling me because you guys have just written this book, which is so exciting and we're gonna dive all into that. But can you give us a little background about you where you kinda grew up a little bit of history of who you are and kinda what has shaped you?

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:11:09 

Yeah.

Yeah. Yes. Of course.

So I'm Danish...

My name my name don't reveal it, but I'm I'm one of the most distinguished persons.

You'll probably meet.

And

to to tell you story,

my my my father was

And I think my grandfather was also so the maternal. And and so for me, going up, that was, like, quite natural that I was I was a little bit against letters. I mean, they did like it's a belief massive belief and I don't believe in it. Though I was quite good at math, and

I think it was some third grade. I I really had any existential crisis because suddenly we got

math exercises, but texting and I no idea what it was about.

So I I really had kind of to make a choice in life to do do

do I want to kind of compromise the thing about not wanting to read because I I really strongly it didn't come natural.

And and and you have probably guessed I I chose them to to really put an effort in, and it was really tough. And and it was funny because later when I met my teachers they was, like, what are you doing?

Are you at the university you know? And, again, leader I I got... I mean,

so so

when when you graduate, then then one, I think of the most preferred employers is Mckenzie, the the management consultancy and that was where I got my job and give a, liking in shock. I mean, how how else is feasible?

I'd say it's pretty tough to be a management consultant

because it also implied I had it up bleed often to really make sure to make these horrible typos that...

I mean,

you're very exposed when you make presentations for very senior people who are very busy. I mean, it really needs to be their bull's eye,

and and and and then in particular some of the...

Mis type because you can do really funny. So so I I had to worry extra hard.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:13:07 

But, you what I love it I know. And and thank you for sharing that because I know when we first

spoke one of the things that I loved that you said that I said, you know, what? I think I need to have you on my podcast

is

you created relationships

and that's where you excel.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:13:21 

Yeah.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:13:22 

The relationships that you made along the way, and then when you got in you know, into

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:13:22 

Yeah.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:13:27 

the job at a very high level. So can you explain to us what those relationships mean to you and how you kind of figured that out? What age you figured out that Okay. I might struggle in school,

but you know what? This is a gift of mine.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:13:42 

Yeah. I mean, it it's it's

I would say

I think I figured it out very late, and and actually, it took me a long time to understand because Kenya, I I learned differently than most people do. The majority of people sit down with a manual and we did or buy read it.

And I haven't... In particularly in my younger life. I didn't read so much today, Read quite lot

but I haven't to know a lot of things and even in school. I mean, in some of the the the the

courses, I I've got really many high grades that I've opening the books because I just knew

what it was about because i I was watching a lot of ten emails,

Always curious is when I met people. So so it's a little bit

I mean, your weakness can become your strings,

but but also when you have weaknesses or whatever you call it or, when you're different,

you you you use your other strings to compensate.

So...

But but still to this day, I I I I have this

I I sometimes know

the answers to things

and I have no idea how I know it would which is actually quite uncomfortable.

I'm very good at coming up with hypothesis, for instance, you. I mean, you do that okay when we manage consultant. And you come up the prices. I'm pretty good that.

I still don't understand why.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:15:01 

Right.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:15:01 

I'm she's chatting with people that I know. I mean, kind i can put me somewhere and I like, get to know everybody quite quickly, and minute it's it's always been like that.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:15:10 

Well and that's one of our gifts. And I have to say, which I'm really happy. My dad isn't in the audience who is

just like, quick as well, and that's where I got it from,

and do you know that my older son hasn't as well, And I always been fascinating with the degrees of Dyslexia. Right? So

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:15:23 

Yeah.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:15:28 

some people have strengths

where others

don't. So, like, my son, and I I would say my dad as well. They're, like, really knowledgeable. As you said, like, my dad knows

so much. Like, if I ever have a question that's like, I will go to my dad. Hey. And he all... Like, it's it's always sometimes... Like, how do you even know that? Do you like I don't know? Like, the same as you just said. And I think my older son is gonna be like that. He always knows facts

because he's really curious, but he also lives... When he hears something, it sticks. I didn't have that. I'm very curious.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:15:57 

Well

 

Juliet Hahn  00:16:00 

But I wasn't as strong

when someone would say I would kinda need to see it written or I would need to write myself where my son doesn't need to do that That will throw him off. And so I'm always fascinated

with the level of dyslexia and how people come compensate and how they

kind of figure it out. One of the things that my son is really, really strong at, and it always, like, I just... I'm like, you're gonna be so fine in life, but he always finds

the person to help him,

and he knows how to... And I don't wanna say manipulate because that's like it I feel like that's a negative word. But he knows how to get what he needs from his teachers.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:16:29 

Mhmm

 

Juliet Hahn  00:16:38 

And so he's always like, yeah, mom no. And I mean, sometimes, I'm like, he he's like, yeah, I I got her to do it. Be

I just said I couldn't do... When he was younger, and I'd be like, oh, well honey you need to learn,

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:16:45 

Yeah exciting.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:16:49 

and then I'd be like, you know what do you really need to know our science and we are not strong in math. My son and and myself. And so it was always, like, you know, there's certain things that we have our strength, as you said, and our strengths are so important, but our weaknesses

to me are just as important to be aware of them, and then figure out how you can work around them, whether it's people that can you know, support you on your weaknesses

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:17:06 

Mhmm

yeah.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:17:12 

or you have to figure out yourself. Okay. How do I get around this? I know this is something that is really tough for me. I know I can figure it out, but then it's also the time thing. So when you were saying when you're in management

consulting when you had to put that time in, was there ever

a period

where you had the assistance because you're like, you know what? This is gonna take too much of my time, and now I'm at a level where time of money. Right? It's it's it's... I need my sleep. I need to be good.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:17:36 

Ted.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:17:38 

How can you take us through that a little bit?

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:17:41 

Yeah. That that's interesting because I I think

back, then, I i I I I I I've I didn't share that I was to explain I think I used it doing one of my interviews to get in because somebody kept probing me like, can you come with an example of you've had a challenge where kind was very children and I like, this electric, and I made it to your interview, and he's like, wow.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:18:04 

Right.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:18:06 

But he probably forgot. So so I kept it as a secret, and and I think

that I have to fit into a system, which was... Of course, we've got a lot of support, but because we often work the very odd times in many of my clients than the Us, you know different times on when often it was not really feasible to get help, like, really quick times.

But but but lead on and and I've been part of starting a couple of companies

when I set my own support system up... I I've been able to optimized it.

So

 

Juliet Hahn  00:18:35 

Right.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:18:36 

I I

I I use

that there are various solutions now available topic that, but

I I get

I get proof reading

so have really good service for that that there's there's also an algorithm so it is when you rather, I use that a lot, and

sometimes I dictate and then I get transcripts

just to cut on when I eat your write something quickly.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:19:02 

Yeah.

But the those are the things that

I feel like nowadays and and correct me if I'm wrong, but nowadays are so many more like, things to help. Right? Like, I know when my dad was younger,

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:19:13 

Yeah.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:19:15 

there was nothing. And it was really even dyslexia It wasn't really, you know, a word probably it was like, you just

are not good in school.

You know, you're just not and his brother

was really good in school brother went to her in yale, and and I I know I'm getting those... But he went, you know, he's an an attorney. And so it was a one of those things that it was like, okay. Well, these are your strengths. But you're not good in school. And so it probably was constantly like, you're good at this. You're good at that. And

nowadays, I remember when when montgomery was, my oldest was

diagnose. I I went to my dad and I'm like, alright alright. Tell me the things now that really help you. You know, I'm really curious on those things that really help you because

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:19:51 

Yeah.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:19:53 

I know what hell me in school, but I'm not in school anymore. And I know that you worked, you know, now have had so much you know, growth in your life. Because you're older are, you know, the experiences, we can all kind of

talk about our stories and our experiences and how we learn from those.

But so... You know, if you'd be like, okay, this this dictation really worked for me well, but this one didn't. But when I... you know, when my son was younger and he was in school, we were learning about that. I was staying home with the kid so I wasn't using these tools, but my dad was in the workforce, so he was using... So it really helped me to be able to tap into him and say, okay. Tell me the shit once and tell me which one's work, and and it was a really great collaboration and and great to have someone that understood. You know, I think that's one of the things that is so important for us to feel understood. Like, you know, when you have a teacher, that's like, oh, just high harder. And you're like,

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:20:16 

No.

Yeah.

Yeah.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:20:44 

I can't try harder to spell asshole. We use my language, but, you know,

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:20:48 

That that that that's actually... I mean, this is the funny thing. This lecture is so difficult to spell.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:20:53 

No. Torture.

Yeah we it really is. And my children's names are

Montgomery, Truman, and penelope, And I have to still... When I spell their names, I have to say an out loud as I felt

I mean, I think my mom was like,

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:21:09 

But, I'm tired, I mean still my own name, but the that like, they not very time. So...

 

Juliet Hahn  00:21:14 

right.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:21:15 

But but it's beautiful.

I think, also, because now you share a couple of stories from from your family and

I think I think

I've come across, so many people who

saw very different than others,

some of them has is extra or lecture something don't.

But

that's really a beauty that that people

despite being different, now get better chance then before. And

i I I would actually say that that

it it took me a long time to realize that that several other of people that really like listening to have Adhd.

I didn't know. But suddenly they were like. Wow.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:21:55 

Oh, yeah we have that too.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:21:58 

Yeah. Because they're are like,

like lot of things is happening, and they connect things it's... I mean, it's difficult to too stereotype or or or or in that way categorize, but I I just actually noticed that that a lot of the people are really enjoyed

kind of

listening to when sharing ideas with have an engine that got is very different than other people.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:22:19 

Right. Right. And it's... But so that is and I love that you you pointed that out. It is nowadays in society

it is talked about more, but, you know, I still think in public school here, especially in the Us, we're still so far behind. I know we have tools and stuff, but there's so many teachers that still don't get it. And it's really frustrating, especially

having a son going through it. It's like, okay. You know, constantly,

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:22:41 

Yeah.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:22:45 

we need to work on his weaknesses. Well, how about his two strengths that are really, really good. I mean, he's really good in English, and he's really good in in history.

Why are we constantly

harp on the basis and the math. He's not gonna be a scientist, and he's not gonna a mathematician.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:22:57 

Yeah.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:23:00 

So let's just kind of

work on the strengths and they still don't get it and I understand that you have to get past those classes.

And, again, that's part of it. I'm like, why? Like, why do we need to take Or science still

day age? That's not gonna be a focus. What what are your thoughts on that?

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:23:14 

Yeah.

Attempted to the dinner Party, and I actually have my view i'm on the school systems

today. And even though my kids have always been very lucky in terms of which schools they got any too. And

how dedicated the teachers they had, I think that that's really important dedicated teachers. So we've been been very lucky anyways, but but still, i'm I'm I'm I'm really concerned because

the competition to get you mentioned how. I mean, the competition get into into how now it's a brutal. I mean,

when when when when I was younger, I mean, if you knew about how what then you had an advantage because most people didn't.

Now, I mean, you have people all over the world who

 

Juliet Hahn  00:23:57 

All over the world.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:23:58 

give them to get into howard, and that also means

what's determines who gets in become more more marketing know?

So so I'm I'm really concerned it's a little bit like...

It it becomes a system where

where people

work hard and harder and optimize the way they were to get through these like,

can

a test and and and in particular

the American school system use a lot of multiple choice speak which i'm I'm very concerned about the is it's it's it's it's

 

Juliet Hahn  00:24:27 

Oh,

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:24:29 

it's a different way of learning. I mean, you you it it's a very narrow way of learning and there's a lot that is important that it's not captured goes through test. So i I was just

my kind of

my my skepticism at water school system, and one of our really, really good friends, and she she said to me Nick like, if that's your attitude truth, I don't think your kids will get a good job, and and it it just occurred to me. And I said up, loud I would actually be really happy because, I think if the problem repeats itself in a lot of big corporations,

I'd love to see my kids being artist on chocolate entrepreneurs.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:25:03 

Yes. Oh, I love that.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:25:06 

And and I think actually, this is the funny thing that it it's about ten percent of the

at all population in the the world

that that

that has you you guys have has lecture.

And when you look at it in in corporate jobs,

is only about three percent of managers who have this lecture. So that means it's a significant

presentation of lex people

But when you look at I'm entrepreneurs, it's an estimate that thirty percent of kapetanopoulos

have a selection.

So so there you have a little bit light a space where creativity is needed.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:25:35 

Oh, wow.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:25:40 

One of the things

that that

I've I read about this study and and one of the kind of

perspectives was that people with this lecture is all... I mean, they are forced to make their own path.

They they cannot expect to be competitive in the traditional path. So they are forced to make their own path.

And also, and I called this from school

I mean, they they... I mean, we

can use to in a very young age to delegate because we'll when there's too much text really depend on somebody else to read it for.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:26:10 

Right

And I love that you said because that was one thing for the teachers early on would say to my son, like, you, say, Well he always gets the group, and he he'll tell everyone else else what to do and have a that I'm they're doing all his work, but he's like, and then I'll present it. But that's those are the life skills that that's what we need, and that's where

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:26:21 

Yeah.

No.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:26:28 

it's so frustrating

copper

education is... I mean, it's it's really not teaching you.

It haven't evolved since basically, what my dad and and we have been in school. And that's what's so crazy to me. I'm like, okay. You have more things more support. Yes. So I'm gonna throw that out there. There is more support than when we were in school

ever, it's still that narrow mind.

And that narrow mind is not a deflect mind. I actually was speaking to someone that's gonna be a guest on my

podcast, and she is a, you know, really into the right and left brain

and how we don't we don't really hide is the right brain that we don't really hide that the creative side of the brain, whenever is the creative side, we're there's not enough of it, and not enough is

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:27:01 

Mhmm

 

Juliet Hahn  00:27:12 

tapped into and appreciated

with that creative brain and how important that creative a brain is to have in the world.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:27:20 

Yeah It's it's

again, back to my concern about the school system. I think a lot of the exams

about whether you make mistakes. I mean, I did directly indirectly. That that's about to do things flawless

what what I think

 

Juliet Hahn  00:27:34 

Mhmm

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:27:36 

when when you look at super creative people, they actually do a lot of mistakes, Mean mistakes is a part of the whole creative process.

So so

and and again, I I have

had great luck in in my professional life to work with really outstanding people. So so it's in no way criticism

of any anybody but

occasionally, I'm still also christ about how little imagination

well educated people have.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:28:05 

Right. It's true though.

Really, it's true. So that I would love to know. I mean I I... You and I could talk about this literally,

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:28:12 

Exactly we have a... We have a little like we are actually you're not so weird.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:28:12 

you know, forever. I do wanna actor before we get into the next

Right Well, and that was one thing when we did. I mean, the thing that I loved is when we connected,

it was really cool because you were telling me about this mat. And I was, like, that's a really interesting part, but I wanna know more about you. I wanna know more about who you are. And that's what, you know, where we're really connected. So do any of your children have dyslexia?

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:28:31 

Yeah.

We don't think so. And had actually, I I kept it a little bit as a secret for them

because and wanted them to be diagnosed

if if if they had the diagnose.

So we we have a suspicion that our daughter of research that potentially have a little bit, but but she have been tested and it it's not strong. I mean, they also

we have two children. So

eleven and thirteen, and and and both of them are perfect.

So their first language is english because we've lived abroad

So so they have lived I mean, the first...

 

Juliet Hahn  00:29:13 

Right.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:29:16 

Yeah. And

They're only been in the month for the last two years so now they they have to learn a new

language in terms of writing and and and leaving

which they have done, but not as much. You would do it as a native. So so they struggling so...

No. I I don't think they have it, but but I also spend time to talk with the teachers about there was a high probability

of it. And and and how generalize? I have a niece who is

who's actually. I'm I'm I'm a great hero. Because she she she's very proud that you can actually write folks even though you

slick.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:29:51 

Well, that's the thing. And I love that that's what you did. And I feel like that is though was such a common thing with

us with dyslexia, when you fail so many times growing up, you're not nervous to tackle things, and that's, you know, very prevalent with your whole career.

You jumped into things, and I think that's one of the things that people that don't struggle that really just kinda live life and that straight path. They don't take those,

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:30:14 

Yep.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:30:16 

you know, they don't they don't go out and explore. They don't go out and take risks. And I I think that's sad. Like, I... That's one of the things I love about my just video that, you know, and I never really thought about it until I really started creating this podcast and it really started growing and my story started growing.

But, you know, people said when you started your podcast, like, what means you wanna do that? I why I love stories. I wanted to platform them.

Can i hear my dog? Oh my gosh.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:30:39 

Yeah

 

Juliet Hahn  00:30:40 

So it was like a very, you know...

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:30:41 

it's at it adds to the story.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:30:43 

Oh, my gosh. My microphone really picks that up. Usually, we don't and I have this new microphone.

So

sorry about that. But so it was a really,

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:30:50 

No no worries.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:30:51 

you know, surprising thing is you know what? I'm gonna have you continue because I'm gonna let my

this is I insane. I...

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:30:58 

I'd say that story.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:30:59 

Yeah. Tell tell us a story. I you please hold on one sec.

I wanna turn my meetup up but tell us a little bit about where your career went, you know, from, you know, where you went out and

so

John

me to be like, you know what I want this in my life.

If you share it that a little bit i'm gonna let my dog go my room.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:31:24 

Yeah.

Yeah I mean,

it it's funny when you ask because when you look at it from the outside,

you can see that I I suffered had from lecture, I was... I was also at university of realized was part of

contributing significant it's two books, and and then data have been devils and beings actually, and then

and then then they and been running two books.

In my contested is a leadership coach, which have done for the last decade, and a little bit more actually.

But but

I I've finished my my exams and economics.

Went to Mackenzie years.

Got a couple of promotions and all this stuff quite well.

Always wanted to start my own distance, and then

I have

in three rounds in a very... You can say it's central person in starting a business for a big international corporations.

So so actually think

Fortune five hundred they must be.

And then asked what's have starting two businesses of my own.

So so from the outside, you would never ever guess that I'm this.

And I also think it's something out to some extent had been overcoming though. Again, when I'm tired, i'm a case i worked very hard and I get very tired.

Then then then I can I I I can feel that that

talking with people is much more natural than the reading and writing, but but otherwise, it works recently,

Junior better then?

 

Juliet Hahn  00:33:15 

Are you guys out there. Can you hear me?

Oh, I think we lost him Eye.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:33:27 

Can hear?

 

Juliet Hahn  00:33:28 

Yeah. I think we we've lost you for a second.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:33:31 

Okay. But you can hear me again.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:33:33 

Yep. I'm gonna put you on

on

video. Hold on a second.

Very. Can you hear me?

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:33:42 

Now perfect.

Yeah. Perfect.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:33:44 

There are. Okay. So...

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:33:45 

Is this okay?

 

Juliet Hahn  00:33:46 

Yeah. So I don't know what happened. I think there's... I feel like the world right now. There's a lot of, like, Internet stuff

goes on.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:33:54 

Okay.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:33:54 

But So what what we knew were saying is which I love. You were talking about your leadership and in the in the jobs that you got and

that you really, you know,

you didn't talk about your dyslexia, and it really never came up and you worked really hard. And I think the one thing

that is so important that people don't realize

is when you are mexican a new user brain, and you work really, really hard, it exhaust you to an extent. So, like, people will say to me, I'm so tired. Like, how can you talk and, like, do interviews all day long and not get tired? Because that's effortless,

effort

for me, that does not take anything away from me because that was one of my really good skills. But if I had to sit and read something,

I fall asleep every twenty minutes.

Because that is using a part of my brain that I have to work really hard on. So I would love for you to touch on that because you've now said that, like, twice and I know with my son,

when he went to a reflex school,

the difference of how tired he was, when he came home versus when he comes home from public school because I'm I have, I'm like, he's he's not... He's taking me in what he needs, but he's not working on the really hard stuff because they're not, you know, they don't know how to do it. But touch on that a little bit.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:35:07 

Yeah. I mean, I I I would actually say that that

I I

have learned to work so hard.

That it's become a part of my personality for good.

And and

 

Juliet Hahn  00:35:26 

Right.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:35:27 

in the book,

that the... Another guy also called me fly. I mean, we talk about framing, which is basically

the very choose of ambitious people, but that these individuals often turn into...

I mean, they are not only your best friends, but they also your western,

and and

one of these is.

And I'd say, I'm I'm I'm really kind of a living example of that, And that means that

it it it's not until

I became a father, which which was relatively

late

that I really started confronting myself. That

since I really had

the this extra drive.

I've been working

tremendous the heart. And

that, of course, has been an advantage, but but it's also it became habitable. So it's like,

I I attended to commit. I attended to if person said this is this is impossible I like.

I'll just prove you.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:36:26 

Right.

Nothing's in impossible.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:36:27 

Yeah But the same. Yeah. Exactly So there's attitude, which, of course, occasionally your professional Been instruction an advantage because

I mean, people said you can try this, but we don't think it would work out. And I mean, I came back and kinda it worked out.

And I've done this over and over again, but but also, I think it becomes...

So so it's beautiful to have this visibility, but it's also a liability because it it means

I could see it with with the my my

our children that

to be fully pressing father,

I mean, mean that I cannot say and work like, twenty hours, which Are done in long periods of time. It's just...

 

Juliet Hahn  00:37:06 

Right.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:37:06 

It's it's it and you can just not combine.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:37:09 

Now do are you... Because I mean, I feel like that's something that we all strive to have that work life balance. When people always say that I'm like, I mean, you do your best Right. You... You know I know my kids when I'm doing work, when it's usually, like family time or whatever, I'll say to them listen if you guys really need me or this is really annoying because I'm usually multitasking and doing something.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:37:15 

Mhmm

 

Juliet Hahn  00:37:32 

Just say, mom,

I need you... You need to focus on me, and then we'll be good. Don't resent that I'm doing this work because I'm building something that's really special. And the way I work is

like you... If I... You know, if I'm turning it off, it really never gets turned off. Like, my husband's really good at being like, okay. I'm working. I'm not working for me. It's always kind of, like, if I get an email or something pops up, I have to do it right then because if I don't, it's gonna stay on my mind or I completely forget about it. So i need to kinda do it there. So I think that is, you know, the whole work life balance is is really not a forest because I don't wanna say that, but it's it's really something that we all kinda of strive for. But

I think within each family,

it's how it works best for each family. So

how how have you

kind of

now that you have kids that are, you know, eleven and thirteen and, you know, how have you kind of balanced that?

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:38:29 

It's it's funny because we also write a bit about it in the book but I'm very honest that I'm really not an expert in in the sense.

I mean, I'm I'm often violating

it

of incapable of keeping that balance.

So

I I I think it's really difficult.

And and I think also,

and and

I I might kind of self legitimate, but but I I think actually,

that that the kids also experience that occasionally.

So I've just had

three weeks where I was

in Portugal with one client, and then I was in italy with another client, and then I was in Cyprus with a third client and then making home and I had, like, a lot of calls because

been quite intense. So I needed to catch up with some of the clients I worked with on the more regular basis. So

that was kind of a crunch time, and and I think

We talk a lot about now I've had a period that was extra intense, and and I think that's important.

And and when that said, i think I think

I like the way you you talk about it as as a family thing because it's really also how you want as a family. I mean,

but my wife also works.

So so

that but but we talk a lot about how how we can do in a way where things work out so instance we haven't had a rule

that

we could not... At the same time travel abroad.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:40:02 

Right.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:40:04 

And and also because we lived the abroad. So if you live abroad and those are traveling and you had two kids who are home, but it in the case that isn't abroad. It it's starts becoming... I mean, and also we lived in a part of the world where

say

buy. It's very close to. So

 

Juliet Hahn  00:40:20 

Right.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:40:20 

it's

I mean, just submit something happy and had two kids they are not being there would be

so we...

I mean, sorry does little bit all tractor, but my point here is, I think I think that the balance is...

 

Juliet Hahn  00:40:31 

No. No. No.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:40:36 

of course, the easy thing is to

try to do as little as possible. But but if you try to live a very rich and exciting life,

it is something where you also need to

be open to the fact that it's not perfect all the time, but another hand, I I guess the kids life would would have periods

where where they also

deep engaged, and and they're very active and they have a lot of friends and we have arranged self.

So so

Yeah. It's it's a noah. So it it's it's not as clean and can you can like it could be. So occasionally, it's messy, but but I live I love my liar my my my my life, and I i love my work, and and there's plenty of both, and there's also lot of time for which kids.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:41:06 

What you...

Which I love. I mean, Think, again, as I said, like, it's important

to have that open communication, Like, as I said, I've sent to the kids like, listen. I'm growing something. I don't... I I didn't

anticipated it to go where it is.

And I'm loving it, and so I really wanna, you know, continue it, but it doesn't mean that you're now left behind. You guys are the most important? You know? Little three people in my life. If you need me, I will drop everything whether I have a live show or what it is,

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:41:37 

Yeah.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:41:49 

and they know that. You know? So I feel like if they know that, it's like, okay. You know, let mom mom's happy. This is great. She's doing something she loves. And I think it's really important. My kids also see but I'm just not sitting around, and and that's okay. If that's okay for someone, but I have ambitions. I... You know, I stayed home. I... You know, I left a career

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:42:04 

Yeah.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:42:08 

to raise them to be home because that was important to me, and that's what I wanted to do and that worked for our family.

And now that they're older,

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:42:15 

Yeah.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:42:16 

they don't need me in the same way, but I need to continue to grow. I don't wanna to stay there and be stagnant because... You know, for me being bored or being, like, restless is like, the worst thing in the world. I seem to be doing

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:42:20 

Yeah.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:42:29 

and they know that. So, you know, I think that your answer is beautiful. It's like you you guys have rules. Okay. This is we both can't be out of the country and and the kids know that. You know that? Okay, mom and debt, You know, so they know that you're talking about it. Right? I mean, you're open with it The we're not doing. This is what we're doing.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:42:30 

Yeah.

Yeah.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:42:45 

I think is is is really important.

Yeah.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:42:48 

Oh, that

And I think you say something that is really important is that

I mean, I can send your energy from our conversation and and and and I think it it's very inspiring. And and I think

I think that i to our kids will also be in inspiring in the way that they can see that... I mean, none of us have a job. We hate

or or dislike. I mean, they can be times where like

 

Juliet Hahn  00:43:12 

Right.

I.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:43:15 

I heat sending in voices, but but we keep doing it.

I'm really find

be going. But but

that that they grow up with parents who who lives active lives

both professionally and socially and and and and I mean that way,

mean they don't need to live in the same way. But at least,

it it's not we we try to kind of slow things down

to to find the balance, but that we have a balance

with a lot of tapes being at the same time.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:43:47 

Which I think as you said, it's important because I think that's one of. I mean, that's one of the reasons why I started the whole podcast, and then... You know, as I said, it kind of

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:43:53 

Oh

 

Juliet Hahn  00:43:55 

blew up to something else, but it was really

talking to

people that was like, you know, I want you guys

not to be miserable new life. It doesn't matter how much money you make. It doesn't matter where you live, like, you can make changes. You're not a tree. You don't need to stay where you are. And if you're miserable in your job,

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:44:10 

Mhmm.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:44:12 

what does that say? What what does that say to your kids? Where does that say to your family?

But also, what does that say to you? You know, we have one life. You might as well

try to do the best that you can in exploring something that's gonna make you happy. You wanna be, you know, waking up. And, you know, I've I've talked about this many times in the podcast. I don't wake up every day and be like, oh hoo. You know, that's that's I get grumpy. I get tired.

But for the most part, I'm excited to wake up. To see who I'm talking to have a conversation like, we're having learning about what you're doing because that's the thing we can all learn from each other. We all have stories

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:44:38 

Yeah.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:44:48 

that we can learn from each other to the mere matter where you are in the world, what your education is what your position is in in life.

We can all learn from each other and I think, inspire each other. So I love what you're doing, and I love now for you to talk a little bit more about the book and how that kind of came about you know, you and Nikola

Eye.

You know, how did that how did you guys decide

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:45:08 

Second.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:45:11 

we're gonna write a up was that you was that him, give us a little background on that.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:45:16 

It it's Carrie his fault.

So I I written a very practical book about a leadership in in difficult context and and yeah,

my client or, you know, anybody you with

So the same company as I worked in our year. So so I did some work with them, and and he was one of my my core contact

So he came and said should we buy the book, and

i i I sounded interesting for any reasons, and we started writing and it it would be... Where my first book was were practical. This would be a book about the big questions in leadership.

And I came back to mindset said, this is too big. This is simply too ambitious.

And and we had a long conversation other than Yeah. Mean yeah. Yeah. Because it was really. I mean, here is is...

 

Juliet Hahn  00:45:59 

Wow. You did.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:46:05 

So one of the trends in immediately with the last

Yeah.

Five, ten twenty years have been that that is important to define what is the meaning in life, and and and it's almost like leadership and the way you build organizations have become kind of a substitute

for for fees and and life philosophies. So so you ask the big questions and leadership, it becomes really existential, like, what it's the meaning of life. Kind of

and and and why it's easy. Exactly. Oh, god. That... That's actually very, very kind of well placed in this context because you you get into that hole

 

Juliet Hahn  00:46:31 

Oh, god. Okay.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:46:39 

it's just been awesome.

And then we talked about it and we talk about our vision And then, paying,

nobody have written about if you look at it, if you and ambition into

Amazon,

very issue books that popped up, and it it it's it it's interesting because

this is ultimately what drives much in in the world that's people's aspirations, and ambitions.

And and And think one of the reasons is that when you look at research around ambition, it it's actually

showing how fingers it is to be ambitious.

I mean, when you look at this psychology

research,

So when you're very ambitious, you you more likely to like get develop very work lives depression, stress, burnout,

etcetera. It's a. Yeah. That's... I mean, there's one of these long huge studies that showed that that ambitious people seem to actually be living longer but but that's one of the few, and it's it's really like a byproduct of the biggest dog. It's not focused on. So

 

Juliet Hahn  00:47:26 

Mhmm.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:47:40 

suddenly you also

that. That when we... Because

we have worked with incredibly and ambitious people, and I'd say, to comment into millimeter need for all my clients. Of to attract people who are very very

ambitious.

And and you you can say and a lot of people struggle

in there

is actually there own ambition.

Because they identify with this, like, future generation of themselves, that is even more successful than they already are, and and that also means they become very...

Fragile because that they they they've often kind of

feel that they're not doing well enough. Things are not going fast and enough about. So we wrote dedicated book about ambitions.

And and the title return of vision come from, actually, a very scary thing we found out because we asked a lot of people

So we we did an international survey of internet of ambitious people,

and and the people who like self declared

as as ambitious

forty three percent of them

admitted that they occasionally going out about whether all their business efforts

would peel off.

This is really significant, almost half that i doubt whether it's worth

 

Juliet Hahn  00:48:47 

Yeah.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:48:50 

So so that that that motivated, we talked about like, how do you get a proper return on the ambition?

 

Juliet Hahn  00:48:52 

That

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:48:56 

So it might be by by working less but but achieving the same or it might be by by putting in a similar for that's, but then it become much more successful

So that that's what the book is really about.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:49:08 

I love it. And you know what? You said I mean, and and you know, it's an old cliche, but likes, attract likes,

when you said, you have a lot of clients that are ambitious. I mean, what when we first opened up the show, you talked about you know, you're an ambitious person.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:49:19 

Yeah.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:49:22 

So

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:49:23 

Yeah.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:49:24 

I think it's it is it was really fascinating and working with people

that you

kind of have... You know, obviously, you learn about people, you're... You know, but

in life, we come across people that, you know, you right away click with. And then there's the people that you don't, and it's always it always fascinated me the people that it's like, uncomfortable when you're having a conversation with with them and you're like, I don't understand Why... They don't seem to understand me. And it shows like a... It's like an energy thing or a weird vibe.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:49:38 

Yeah.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:49:53 

But when you work with people that have that same

sort of ambition same sort of span, same sort of, you know, some sort of energy. You know, I have a lot of energy. Obviously, we've talked about that and so not everyone has my energy.

I see Katie Brink in the in the audience there, she has that

But so it is really an interesting thing. So as you dove

into this book,

what were some of the others and I love that you kind of

pointed out that percentage and I think that percentage is something in life. I mean, when we all tackle something,

you know, it's a fifty fifty chance it's gonna work out or if it's not gonna work out. And a lot of times, for me, you know, I believe in god, and I really do believe that we all have a pass

And

I talk about on this podcast a lot about the fact that we should daydream dream. You should find that space to daydream dream whether some people call meditating.

I call a daydream dream. I know that I can't just sit on a mat and clear my head and own and do that because I'm my think of a laundry and all the things that I haven't done around the house. But if I'm walking, if I'm moving,

is when I get my best creative the, you know, thoughts or that's when I can really daydream dream the best. And so

that's when I came up with the podcast. That's when I come up. You know, when I... You know, if I've talked to guests, like, okay, how do I see this coming about? So when you were writing the book and really kind of diving into it,

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:51:12 

Yeah.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:51:14 

what were some of these things that... You know, other than the percentage that stood out what were some of the other things that you were like, wow. I need... I need to get this book out, but I also

i'm really fascinated about this as well.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:51:30 

I I think there a couple of candidates. So so one was we saw that the people who are really successful over time so continuously successful much one hit wonders

then

goes through our survey, but also through in depth interview, and also, we we went through needed search

more everything we could

everything we could find.

And and that seem to be that that people were really successful all the time they they nurture

their personal growth and learning you talked about learning.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:52:03 

Mhmm.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:52:04 

And also, they are very cautious about their well being. And well being more than just like physical health, mental social,

life

spiritual life.

And i I think that that's important also you refer to

patterns earlier in such a funny notion because it sounds like work is not part of life. And

but but when you look at these three at the same time and say you need to nurture all three and omega compromise on one of them,

then the two others us will go down over time. We saw that again, I am again, and there's a lot of research that that each of these three

achievement growth all being.

They they are thirsty related and and

self enforcing.

Or

these isn't taking future if you don't, if you don't nurture them.

So that that was one. And the other thing I would say is that

when you read it,

spend time

thinking about your own ambition, and you do so when you write a book of ambition, they did also

suddenly becomes an object. You you you can hold up and start looking at.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:53:12 

Mhmm.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:53:12 

And and, of course, it's been such a significant part of my identity to people say you know,

he's so successful and you on this and he's said because I was I was twenty nine years old when I was appointed managing Director for a pretty hot jump.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:53:26 

Well,

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:53:27 

And so you like, that that whole identity

around the success what what what I mean, I I couldn't separate it from myself. And and now

maybe because of each, it became easier, but also...

And and that... That's one of the things we give the readers in the book.

Time to really reflect on what what works your ambition and and

also the thing with for, that that there are a lot of things that it become such.

Integrated part of yourself. You don't notice it anymore.

But sometimes that's they're making life much more difficult for you. It may it becomes much more difficult to achieve what you would like to achieve, and it becomes really difficult to nurture these like, and i I can... I mean, I've had periods of time when I gained, like, fifty pounds. And that's quite a lot. I'm I'm quite tall, but that's still i'm not so told you don't notes the food.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:53:58 

Right.

Right

It doesn't hide.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:54:20 

Yeah. Exactly. I had long of time on a spanish would you just super unhealthy.

But but it it it it it it's funny because at that time, I mean, there was very successful and had of very social life. So I didn't see any of that alternative and just

kind of

be out there, but that, of course, it's not been healthy. So so the more you can say these things are and not being subject to them but protect them up and look at them and and more as an object, you can also choose like, what's really the most important thing here?

What is less important or what don't you need to do as fast?

 

Juliet Hahn  00:54:53 

Yeah. And and so I love that you talked about that because I know for me when I was younger, I could literally five hours was good, and I was... I could

live on five hours sleep a night. Like, i didn't bother me And I remember the kind of the period roles, and I realized, oh, crap.

I kinda like sleeping now. I can't wait to go to sleep.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:55:14 

You

 

Juliet Hahn  00:55:16 

And I also know that if I don't get a good night's sleep, my podcast interviews are not the same because my brain is not as clear. And it's so many different things. That sometimes it's frustrating. So i'm like, I loved in that day where I could go, I could party all night, you know, I could sleep for four hours. I could wake up, and I was, you know, still

Crisp and, you know, I I could still do things.

And then that time where it was, like, okay. I mean, kids you know, you also learn in there, you know, adrenaline for so many years and they weren't sleeping You weren't sleeping.

But then as you as you get older,

it's the same with with nutrition, it's sleep, and it's so interesting that those kind of things

are more top of mind. Where when we're younger and we're working really hard and things are coming,

you know, and and your body's not breaking down, but I feel like as you get older,

you become more aware of it. Is that something do you agree with that? Or is it something that do you think physically?

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:56:10 

Yeah

 

Juliet Hahn  00:56:11 

It's it's harder? So do you think it's them more of a mind or body?

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:56:17 

i I I think it's both...

I mean, without doubt, the the body relative less well. I mean, when my

as you each,

but but I think

and there's pretty solid research about.

Our ability to remember

our feelings is pretty poor.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:56:35 

Mhmm

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:56:35 

That means

when we look back in life

at period of time where we have been receiving very it'll will work very hard.

We have a very poor collection of this

ongoing noise level this

ongoing kind of

un unpleasant. I mean, it it be we don't remember we we we typically remember the peaks of experiences.

So so and I can see it now when I occasionally work with the the the leaders who have been moving up very quickly and therefore, ready to be young and and sit in the kind of positions that that's really work when that's a coach. And

 

Juliet Hahn  00:57:01 

Right.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:57:14 

it's funny because they they probably believe that they can keep so little and nobody knows. But when I hit with him inside,

 

Juliet Hahn  00:57:21 

You notice?

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:57:23 

it's like

I can barely keep your attention for more than a few seconds at a time. I mean,

Yeah. I would I would say I I can see

in some people

how this believes that they don't need to sleep

that affect their leadership, and it's a...

Struggles to be fully present and to listen to other people

that that and it's not oncoming in corporate environments when you get at the very high level of people like very switched on and seems was very fast, But when you actually sit and and and and so

part of my job is to sit in up so leadership teams.

In between we do, like, actual active work with them, but that... So a lot of teams in... It's quite interesting. You put these

incredibly well paid people who are super intelligent and and really have working into a room and often what happens in that is pretty dysfunctional

because people didn't don't pick we got to who clues from each other. They they can say don't have a debate where you...

 

Juliet Hahn  00:58:23 

Right.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:58:26 

It's sometimes I'm asked if I can feel feedback after having upset. And sometimes really need to to to where my works very carefully because it's like. The the the the the college of the discussion you don't reflect with intelligence.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:58:40 

I love how you just did that. And I can totally picture it because and I think anyone in the audience can picture that wherever anyone's listening

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:58:43 

Oh

 

Juliet Hahn  00:58:47 

because

Again, sleep is so important and you do... There's an ear ability

when someone is not getting enough sleep. And I you could see that in so many different levels from a child to, you know, mid mid life person to a young person to an older person.

And

a lot of times, in certain circles, sleep is not talked about as, you know, it's it's like you know, you just do it because you have to, but it's not, like, in a an essential thing. Like, so it always has me with, like, surgeons. Like, how do they actually do that? I know their body gets used to it because they have, like, a different sleep cycle,

But still, I never think because if that's like, a good thing. I'm like... You know, it's it's sleep is so...

I know so important for me

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:59:31 

Yeah.

 

Juliet Hahn  00:59:31 

as I've gotten older for my brain when I'm having a conversation, as you said, when I'm sitting here in listening,

if I'm tired, i'm more distracted.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:59:40 

And it's it's... And I know in the Us explained when you in intern.

So when you have have finished your daughters and start working The house was about unusual to work hundred hundred and ten hours

a week,

 

Juliet Hahn  00:59:52 

Yeah.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  00:59:52 

and and and it's really odd.

So, of course, it's this is a very critical face for you professionally because the this is where they meet their name

if you become like an and and and acknowledge doctor in the Us, you you can really make a lot of money.

So I can also understand why people really have an incentive to give himself fully

without doubt, I mean,

this most people's position and their productivity.

So so so it's one of these things where

I can fully understand why each individual work like that because so much is at stake for them.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:00:34 

Right.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:00:35 

But but when you look at it, it it's really not optimal from a point of view. That that's my strong view.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:00:42 

No. Totally. And also, having a surgeon

didn't you think about it, like I wanna a well rested surgeon. I don't want someone that's been,

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:00:49 

Well

 

Juliet Hahn  01:00:49 

you know, and I know the surgeons when they get to that level. they... They're not working those crazy hours, You know, it's more specific. But, like, when when as you're said with the interns, you you kinda like, oh, interesting. Because, you know what? And and as you become more, you know, older, you're more aware of things. I mean, that's just, you know, even when your parents were when you were younger. Oh, I just know because I'm older. You know? I mean still my kids get so frustrated, Well how do you know I'm like because I lived, like, I've limp life. I I know these things. It's annoying. Trust me.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:01:15 

On the ahead of you.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:01:17 

Right.

It that's exactly what it is. I mean, it really is.

So

I I would love for you just... So

do you think there's gonna be more I mean, that's that fascinating needs me. I we know again, when we talked,

it was, you know, you're like, I'm just like sick and I wrote a book, and I know there's other out there that maybe wouldn't even ever think about it because words are hard,

but you did it

very successfully. I mean, you've one awards. For it.

Do you think there's more books or is that was that like a, you know, what? I did it, and I love that I did it, but I'm not gonna do anymore.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:01:54 

So I I I think I will write

use one more book. I I have an idea. Actually had it already when Me approached, which is several years ago now. So does that bug needs to get out at some point, But

 

Juliet Hahn  01:02:04 

Oh, I love that.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:02:08 

it is really a lot heat relationship that that thing. And I and I know the same also for for electric

authors that

when you sit down with this completely keen piece of paper or you of course, you do it in making computer in case, but still. You starve out in in in in in a document and his team, that that's such the beautiful thing. I mean, And then then when you're through the third editing around with a really is

 

Juliet Hahn  01:02:30 

Right.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:02:35 

opposite.

Still it's so bad.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:02:40 

Right. So that's so fascinating.

So what was your... What did you find the most difficult

part of the writing?

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:02:56 

I I think we had a really good partnership

And and myself when we wrote it, so

we wrote parts the book together, and and and he wrote one path that I worked another part.

So so I think in many ways, that that worked really well and we were very lucky. We had three editors

in in Very and also really

helpful.

One part that was really tough, and I was actually with here a few days ago.

We gave each other so blown feedback that it was really emotion tough,

 

Juliet Hahn  01:03:32 

Right.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:03:33 

and I think the book would never become as good as it became happy not been. So, I mean, grew to the honest to each other.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:03:40 

Right.

That's communication.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:03:42 

So I think I think that I think that that out a it

is tough when you write with somebody else.

And I think the same goes, also, if you were... I mean, lot of electric people I have impression when the right books they they work with ghost drivers as we didn't.

And another is that

so much is written

about you. Now our book is about ambition. So it's a bit broader,

but but

really fighting with my itself about... We putting something down here just because it sounds cool that would let you make a difference is this and he is without out there already.

That that whole uncertainty

 

Juliet Hahn  01:04:21 

Right.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:04:23 

of

of actually having ideas that that are clear and valuable and you need and are presented in a way where where people get them easily and it's also done in a practical way that that's true.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:04:37 

Right. I mean, it really is. I mean, just the process I've talked to, you know, other writers,

and just the process to me seems overwhelming. So

like I have to ask this too. Because I know for me,

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:04:48 

Yeah.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:04:50 

what what I have that I wanna say, if I I'm gonna write what I'm gonna say and never comes out the same way. Like, that's where my dyslexia is, like, I have to verbal everything I need to voice notes.

Because it doesn't. And like, if my friend is texting me, and it has, like, a long... You know, a long question.

I'm like, I gotta a voice text you and now

lot people in my life that don't love my voice text.

My husband being one of them,

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:05:13 

Oh we.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:05:15 

but I'm like, honey, If you're gonna ask me a question, I I'm not I'm not typing it. I can

voice... You know, I can, you know, voice know where it's picking up my words instead of just my voice. But half of the time, it I have to go through it, and I don't know. Like, it... There's always so many mistakes.

So did you

put pen to paper? Like, what was in your brain? You put it on paper? Or did you voice that into an app? At then transcribed it for you.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:05:39 

Yeah.

I mean, the group was written.

But but I can I I I was I was laughing when you're telling about it because I also have a lot of friends that that writes me this kind of text message saying, thank you so much for your podcast. I listen to this bucket

because it's so much.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:05:55 

Right.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:05:59 

In sometimes i think is also so much more personal, and and I spend a lot of time even though text messages what ian is

to get them them right.

So give it tell, I'm very good at it, but I i also spend more time the notes to

to be precise.

Yeah. And I mean,

it it's funny because

I think when you need the voice made

use things once and and in in the board things you say Right? And and you... I mean,

it works really well for me. But but then, again, this is for one person. When you write something that

the thousands of people will will really the and millions have access to eternity,

then then suddenly neither some ideas for me, that i really wants to get it right. That also means that it's a very

writing process that that

that

there's one chapter the book. I I I I mean,

it could have been a whole book in itself. And I I I think I've I I've spent

i on three weeks from that chapter.

I think it's really good chapter to know.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:07:05 

Wow.

Well, I'm sure it is. I mean, but that's what I love. I you can... I mean, the thing is... And, again, I don't think people appreciate

because not all, you know, not all reflex people as... We talked that in the beginning. We... There's certain things. We have certain strengths in certain weaknesses and not everyone's,

you know, just because you're reflex, doesn't meet it's an umbrella. Right? So there's there's different ways. That there's different spectrum of it.

And I love that you from an early age,

you knew that you

we're gonna put the... like, if you put tons of effort into it, it would you would have the outcome that you would want. So there's a little bit of a perfectionism

in you that I'm hearing.

Do you agree with that?

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:07:49 

Without doubt, i'd say that they... As I understand about five different categories of selection and at least according to one of the money and and one of those is

the phonetic

kind ability to pick up a sound and connected it with the letter. And that that's where my weaknesses is.

So when I write today, the way I ride is literally. I know how the the the word

 

Juliet Hahn  01:08:06 

Okay.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:08:13 

will duke in letters.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:08:15 

Right.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:08:16 

But but if somebody

sees a name and I I've worked a lot I mean, around the world,

including police where people are called the same as where I grew up.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:08:25 

Right.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:08:26 

I knew idea how... I mean,

I mean,

I mean, even even even guessing the first three letters is to from kind of quite a challenge, if I haven't seen it in writing.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:08:38 

Right. Right right Right. But even, just the whole

pronouncing someone else's deemed from a different country. I I I share this

when I first went into the business world, I was an assistant. And so They answer the phones and, you know, right the person's name down and give my thoughts.

The the note, like, this person called...

Well, I would get off the phone and I'd be like, oh, crap. I don't how to spell their name. And so he literally

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:09:01 

Yeah. Alright.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:09:02 

But I send to my supposed and I don't wanna be an assistant. I know this is the stepping store I suck at this. Like, this is not my strength at all.

And you're gonna... I'm I'm I'm trying and I'm really trying think goodness I had a boss, but, you know, would joke and be like, alright. Alright. Like, sometimes I'd just take up the phone. I'm, like, can you just get it because I don't... He said the name, but I can't pronounce them again. But I can't it.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:09:23 

Yeah I'm having I and then people are people that...

People are generally very nice.

So then they they spell their name, but most people

they have still any so many times. It goes so fast. I again, after the four or five letters, i'm unlike lost,

it's really it's... And and other people would not believe that this is true. But that that's how is.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:09:43 

Right. Especially because where you are in your... I mean, in your in your business, I mean, you have climbed,

you know, I mean, in in the whole cliche every ladder and have gotten to the top and in in many in many, you know, aspects, you've written a book you've helped so many people and so many organizations with their leadership to speak other leaders better.

But

communicating and connecting with people.

And you can feel that here.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:10:18 

Yeah

And and now we told a little bit about learning in life and

as I've been trying being that letter, my my confidence have also been growing that I must be doing some of the things

Okay.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:10:39 

Right.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:10:39 

But still, sometimes it it's done in know is where realize life i do it very different than than other people.

I mean, back to the thing about how un updates do i know this and how know that. And

 

Juliet Hahn  01:10:45 

Right.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:10:51 

yeah And that that's because I pick up signals from many places where that people would typically go to one source, and then they would repeat this source, but because I'm not

 

Juliet Hahn  01:10:52 

Well,

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:11:01 

I

didn't grow up like that.

Or typically they have a very multi set of perspective on things.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:11:08 

which which has been, you know, which has been successful for you, But the other thing is and I touched on this a little bit. You know, I believe in god. Some people believe in the universe. I actually believe in both, but

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:11:13 

Oh

 

Juliet Hahn  01:11:18 

you are in

what... You know, God created you for exactly what you're doing.

And and and it shows, you know, when when we find that, what God has created for us, and we are in that path, that flow you know, no. It's not always easy,

but you feel the flow and you're like, okay. And every time it's like, okay. It i in the right spot, and then something happens. You know, that's so cool to to feel that and and be connected with people, and then be like, okay. I keep doing them out there day dreaming, and then this just came, you know, came to force and this just came from fruition. And I just met these people here, and it's such a cool thing to be in that pass,

and you you clearly are in that path.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:11:57 

Mhmm.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:11:59 

Do you agree with that?

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:12:03 

Yeah. I mean,

I I'm I'm typically using slightly from the words. But but I think the some of it... I I clearly experience. And and

i I think

when you see yourself as lucky, and when you look at setbacks or weaknesses

as opportunities,

then then you're in a pretty good position because on, of course, I'm I'm super privileged in many ways.

Just so

 

Juliet Hahn  01:12:28 

But you worked really hard for it though. You know?

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:12:31 

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But the but again from the outside for a lot of people. I mean

I've been very I mean, grown up with with loving parents and I mean

been blocking with a lot of things. But yes.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:12:45 

But... Yeah. But but and as you said, I mean, you work harder and probably the average person to be where you are because

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:12:52 

Mhmm

 

Juliet Hahn  01:12:52 

dyslexia. And because, you know, you have a,

you know, you hold yourself at a certain

a certain level, which is you know, it which is... Which is great, but that's why, you know, you are successful. So I... You know, I love to this conversation. I said to you, You know, when we met and we talked and, you know, at first, it was, like, Well, you know, I'm we're we could talk about the book, and and then when you started talking a little bit more, I was like, oh on. I'm fascinated by you because of all

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:13:06 

mhmm

 

Juliet Hahn  01:13:17 

the things that you have done in in the world,

raising a family, you know, having, you know, your wife and just

I'm excited to continue to watch you what you grow and and and learn from you. I mean, really,

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:13:31 

thank you so much. And i say I mean, as I said, I'm lucky. I really enjoyed

this this whole thing.

So so thank you

for all your energy and assessments really a joy to prepare and also be here the call.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:13:44 

Yeah. Thank you. And guys, you can find Nikola. His website is here, But he also hangs out on Linkedin, and that is his name, if you're driving and you're like, I can't see it. We're gonna spell it And I'm gonna to spell it. To correct me about to.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:13:56 

Dude slowly if anybody

 

Juliet Hahn  01:13:59 

Yep. Right. So it's Nikola, and i see o l

a i, and then till. I said that right this time Right? T i l l i s c h, and that's dot com. You can find him there. You can email... They can find all your information on your website.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:14:08 

Exactly.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:14:16 

Correct in the guy.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:14:18 

I mean, I I think I have offered quite a lot of information. I mean, given how interesting I am, I think I think I think I've given an awesome.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:14:27 

This is... I love that. Right?

This is good. Well, you are on holidays. So I also appreciate you because we've had

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:14:33 

No. No. No another a big holiday. It's just it's propaganda

it's fine. So it's really wrong.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:14:37 

Yeah. But still, you had spend some time with the kids and I know we we had switched a couple times because my listeners know

two boys that have broken limbs and we had to

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:14:46 

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:14:47 

it's been... It's been cookie over here, but as we all know, you know, anyone out there that's parents,

building a business being a parents, you know, living life. We have all these things that are thrown on us, and we just have to not ever let them

take over and and make an experience,

define us. We have to take an experience, and we have to learn to live with it.

Embrace it, run with it and it, you know, and and take life as it comes and not, again, let it define us. So,

I thank you so much for joining y and s live here on Fireside,

Wherever you guys are listening, if you were on, I know we had the couple... I had a couple Internet stuff. So if you were on Linkedin, and we lost you, I so I'm so sorry.

But if you were there, if you're Youtube Facebook,

Twitch, and here again, on Fireside, and you guys will be able to have this episode on any of your podcast players in a in a couple weeks, and we will let you guys know. But if I thank you so much again, and I'm excited. To be in touch with you, and I watch you grow. And and again, as I said, learn from you.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:15:42 

Thank you so much.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:15:48 

And thank you, everyone.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:15:48 

Thank you. And then likewise. I really enjoyed this. Thank you so much. Thank you for doing what you're doing. Take care.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:15:52 

Thank you.

Yes. Thank you thank you, And thank you to Mark. Will

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:15:54 

Thanks. Bye. Bye.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:15:57 

Cindy, Rachel and Katie, and I know there's been people in and out,

but for joining us here live in the show, we appreciate your time and for here, you know, listening

to nikola wonderful

what for story. And, you know, if you are out there listening and you are deflect,

it doesn't define you and you can

literally do anything you ever want to do. We are actually cooler than most people.

Line.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:16:22 

Exactly. No. We keep it a secret, but today, it's official.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:16:26 

Exactly. Exactly.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:16:28 

Super. Good.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:16:30 

Bye. Everyone Owen.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:16:30 

Thank you of much. Take care. Thanks.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:16:31 

Some slow music leaving us.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:16:35 

Thank you.

 

Juliet Hahn  01:16:35 

Take care bye everyone.

 

Nicolai Tillisch  01:16:37 

Right.

My focus is entirely on helping you follow your passion, even when you feel like you've got stuck in crazy town. There is a way out, its me helping you. You don't have to ditch everything in your life that is making you feel overwhelmed and stuck, you just need some help to navigate it.

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